Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Minstrel

[bohbashum]

The coda in this form heals literally ~20 morale at level 75. Wat?

this is clearly a bug and was introduced later in beta iinc. be sure to /bug it.

I really liked having to "weave" the anthems pre HD. Just being able to spam all 3 anthems immediately in battle is boring.

they've somewhat changed more than what you make out. you can only have 1 anthem up at a time normally, but they stack in yellow line (up to 3). they stack with themselves, yes, 3x anthem of war. they stack with coda effects too. in yellow (while it might be a /bug) you don't remove anthems off you with coda. as normal remember than anthems never get removed from allies using a coda.

Finally, why didn't they remove our rez power from the deeds? They did remove the revive one from the captain (if I recall correctly). Now to get another trait point I am going to have to farm 95 revives for the revive deed? Also very frustrating.

no new class deeds have been made (not including meta deeds). all 22 old class deeds have just been converted. what ever that deed you have is will be an old deed you didn't complete converted to needing rez's.

[BillBones]

they've somewhat changed more than what you make out. you can only have 1 anthem up at a time normally, but they stack in yellow line (up to 3). they stack with themselves, yes, 3x anthem of war. they stack with coda effects too. in yellow (while it might be a /bug) you don't remove anthems off you with coda. as normal remember than anthems never get removed from allies using a coda.

Ah. That is interesting at least. Still, I liked the cooldown from before, so that I couldn't just spam them every 25 seconds. I guess they want players attacking more, across the board.

Also, relating the the revive deed. Not quite sure I understand. I didn't have the revive deed completed before the patch, but it is still around in HD. The captain no longer has a revive deed, I think. Much better, since farming the revive deed would be beyond ridiculous. Plus, the point is actually useful now, whereas the trait before was not for someone who just plays in a duo.

[Deviled_Egg]

Set up Moochy today with her trees. While in the red tree and in Dissonance stance I have full Fellowships Heart available to use. I should not be able to use that as a group heal in the new war speech. Also when in blue line and in Dissonance stance I can use Fellowships Heart and Triumphant Spirit both.

Finished setting her up, picked up my mail, logged off for the night.

Fixes are going in for 12.1 which will restrict those skills once more.

[Deviled_Egg]

I was also confused by having Gift of the Hammerhand AND Improved Gift of the Hammerhand.

My minstrel is currently traited red-line and has the Rally! skill. Some kinmates came and died for me so I could see if I was able to use it, and I was able to use it. Seems like a bug.

You are in fact not supposed to have both! Come 12.1 "Improved Gift of the Hammerhand" should only be able to be ranked from the yellow line. The issue with Rally! being available without having purchased it in the Blue line is related, and will also be fixed in 12.1

[Mar-Evayave]

You are in fact not supposed to have both! Come 12.1 "Improved Gift of the Hammerhand" should only be able to be ranked from the yellow line. The issue with Rally! being available without having purchased it in the Blue line is related, and will also be fixed in 12.1

And Improved Gift of the Hammerhand will overwrite the other version, correct? Or rather, upgrade the other version?

Also, any input on how my Coda of Melody does only a 15-22ish AoE heal when traited in red or yellow (that it somehow requires some obscure thing in the blue line for it to actually give a proper heal)?

[Calta]

the issue with Rally! being available without having purchased it in the Blue line is related, and will also be fixed in 12.1

So rally is only available if traited deep in blue? Therefore yellow is useless as a group heal buff line?

Is this really the intention Egg? because in practice, it will mean no one is going to take a yellow buffing minstrel who can't rez in combat on any hard group stuff. Remember, you can't swich to blue, in combat-which makes yellow utterly redundant. and it's plain stupid immersion wise, that my character 'forgets' a legendary skill equated with minnies for 6 years, when still healing in group.

I'd happily give up all the stats traits (and a lot of the other yellow stuff actually) to get rally put in yellow.

Also is it right that Minstrels can't remove corruptions at range unless they use a stun/heal ( version of PC)-is this correct? It's better than the toggle but i'm still a little confused by all the PC variations and how they are actually meant to work in each spec and stance.

The aoe coda in melody is broken, too.

edit: oh and song of aid still buffs the non existant hunter parry response. and it's disappeared from my skills in all stances even though I just tried speccing all points in yellow to get it.
and class deeds are still not aligned with current skills and traits.

It's not even worth finishing compiling a fix-it list now-i'm just too miserable and there are STILL no minstrel patch or dev notes (apparently our class doesn't exist in HD according to Sapience's notes) so it's impossible to give accurate feedback anyway.

I'm back to the solo RK who is having a blast with 23 K hits routinely and great self heals (she'll level so fast until they nerf dps-going to make the most of it) She, at least, will have a choice of roles in BBs and doesn't have to create a half effective build to get core RK skills.

Seems to me, it's only minstrels who will be faced with a truly 'hard choice' in HD- either Heal bot or solo dps.

[J_Howell]

I'd happily give up all the stats traits (and a lot of the other yellow stuff actually) to get rally put in yellow.

I'm sure you meant that Rally should be a general skill. As you (and others) have pointed out, it's a key skill to have in any group build, blue or yellow. And I wouldn't be surprised if PvP folks would want it available in a red build too.

The captain no longer has a revive deed, I think. Much better, since farming the revive deed would be beyond ridiculous. Plus, the point is actually useful now, whereas the trait before was not for someone who just plays in a duo.

Correct, the former cappy rez deed is now a "crit with inspire or valiant strike" deed. Much less painful. That was the only class skill I hadn't done on any of my once-level-capped characters (cappy capped briefly at 75), was at 47/100 after a bit over three years of play. Note that the cappy rez deed became as farmable as the mini rez deed last year when RoR came out and captains got their spammable rez. Not that it helped me, obviously (was at 32/100 when RoR came out).

[Calta]

I'm sure you meant that Rally should be a general skill. As you (and others) have pointed out, it's a key skill to have in any group build, blue or yellow. And I wouldn't be surprised if PvP folks would want it available in a red build too.
.

Been trying for a general skill since august. It's clear it's not going to happen- despite Boba's assurances and assumption it was a bug. Dev has made up her mind, apparently, that minstrels' role in groups is only to fill green bars and rez in blue, and thats not negotiable.

This suggestion of mine is a last resort compromise.

(red line PvPers can fight their own battles, i'm afraid. I'm broken.)

[Veria]

Wow just wow. Funny thing, Calta and me could vouch there hasn't been one specific skill as frequently asked for on beta as giving Rally! back. Haven't seen single complaint that it would be something OP, especially with longer cd, induction... it's ironic that even the skill itself doesn't want to stay just in blue and keeps bugging out. Oh well, guess dev just wants Yellow to remain niche line.

Seriously champs got Bracing Attack back due to popular outrage, hunters got Cry of the Hunter back due to outrage, minis can't get back neither Rally! nor Free Ppls Anthem after all the feedback left?

I guess 12.1 is just bug fixes for minis.

[Mar-Evayave]

Speaking of Song of Aid, I'm kinda miffed that I have to trait yellow (which I really just don't do) in order to use that skill 400 times (with a 2m cd). I'm now basically spamming the skill every 2m when I remember to, and I'd much rather be in the red tree than yellow.

If we are going to have class deeds where we use skill X a billion times, can we PLEASE have those deeds relate to our general skills? Instead of having to trait heavily into a line we don't care about? In the old system, if we didn't want the related trait, we could skip the deed entirely. Now, if we want the full potential (ie: full amount of class trait points to work with) we have to complete ALL of those deeds. And thus me being forced into yellow in order to use Song of Aid (which I really don't care about) 400 times.

Thank goodness I already had it at about 250 when HD launched... -.-

[BillBones]

Another thing about Song of Aid. It still gives Hunters a parry response, but the Hunter I play with didn't think she had any parry response skills remaining. Is that true?

[Calta]

Another thing about Song of Aid. It still gives Hunters a parry response, but the Hunter I play with didn't think she had any parry response skills remaining. Is that true?

yes. it's been reported and bugged by minstrels since hunter changes but no one cares

[infinitewhimsy]

Trait trees ruined the Minstrel.

Healing is incredibly boring if you're not buffing (worse yet, it's also largely unneeded in big battles) and because of this simple fact, having to pick one or the other makes the class either a brainless healbot (blue), or a gimped healer (yellow). And neither is remotely as entertaining to play as the Minstrel before HD, the Minstrel was perfect in its group balance/dynamic then, imo. A large part of the appeal for me was the complexity added to the class if you wanted it, now everything is oversimplified and the songs ring hollow and you find yourself wondering why you're even here.

[BillBones]

A large part of the appeal for me was the complexity added to the class if you wanted it, now everything is oversimplified and the songs ring hollow and you find yourself wondering why you're even here.

Yellow line feels that way to me too. It is trivial to keep up maximum number of anthems, whereas before if I wanted to do that, it would actually have to put effort into it.

[lynlai]

Can anyone tell me what the legacy Dissonance Stance Swap Buff is, please?

[Calta]

Can anyone tell me what the legacy Dissonance Stance Swap Buff is, please?

It was asked in beta, no reply. But iirc i think we worked out that it reduces/removes induction when you swap into/out of dissonance stance and adds a small heal buff? sorry don't have the legacy to check it yet and beta thread has gone.

Cloudie-wan may know having shown the most completely finished LIs of the regular forum users -maybe a polite PM to Cloudie or Bobashum could help. We did not see how the legacies were finally changed until launch.

Please note Everything in the summary has been provided and tested by Beta players pretty much in a vacuum and now it's up to you guys. We have never had a guide to the intended changes to each skill, how they are meant to work in each stance (this caused a LOT of confusion over the melody harmony resonance names, echoes/melody of battle effects, and coda of resonance names and effects and was NEVER addressed by the developer). We only learned about aggro/threat from warden and guardians threads and about corruption removal being important from RockXs regular posts to his classes. No info on how our class buffs skills were intended to work and they still buff nonexistant skills for other classes.

It gets very confusing to tell the difference between the bugs we have pointed out and the clear 'not going change stuff" like the echoes/melody reversal and resonance coda name that most people think is a bug, but isn't. Or rally only being available in tier 6 blue spec, thereby making the healing/buffing line redundant. (dead horse gets flogged again.) Or song of aids buffing a hunters non existant parry reponse. Or CtG and our ranged corruption removal not being avaialble in blue but we got 3 different bubbles and a random version of PC that gives us yet another group heal we don't need... Some of these are wai and others are not but the thinking behind them all makes about as much sense to me buggged or waii-not a lot.

I'm either soloing in dps, HD battles in dps-no stance dance is required or I'm spam healing in harmony/melody, so I'm not sure and never going to use it, probably. I'll sort my LIs at 95 after i know what the next changes bring. She likely won't need them because she'll be cooking while the RK plays Big Battles.


So there you go-- it's up to you-test away and let us know please

[Wiser]

Can anyone tell me what the legacy Dissonance Stance Swap Buff is, please?

Tested this in beta. It's a +1-9% damage buff(It's THAT Fresh Voice that do nothing if you don't have this legacy) for 8s whenever you switch from Resonance/Melody stance to Dissonance.

[Calta]

Tested this in beta. It's a +1-9% damage buff(It's THAT Fresh Voice that do nothing if you don't have this legacy) for 8s whenever you switch from Resonance/Melody stance to Dissonance.

Thank you. My memory is very bad. Glad yours is not And thanks for the information about what fresh voice does. I'm doing lansdcape slowly at the moment so haven't done much experimenting outside traiting straight red. Kaboom!

[lynlai]

Tested this in beta. It's a +1-9% damage buff(It's THAT Fresh Voice that do nothing if you don't have this legacy) for 8s whenever you switch from Resonance/Melody stance to Dissonance.

Ahh, yes, thank you! I remember now! It was in the tree, removed from tree and made into a legacy. Thanks!!!

[andracy]

Ahh, yes, thank you! I remember now! It was in the tree, removed from tree and made into a legacy. Thanks!!!

An useless legacy ...

[Octaviane]

May I ask what, if anything, replaced Song of Soothing? If Minstrel is going to be a more powerful healer where is the threat reduction skill? Thanks

[Beaniemooch]

May I ask what, if anything, replaced Song of Soothing? If Minstrel is going to be a more powerful healer where is the threat reduction skill? Thanks

We don't have anything to replace Song of Soothing. The legacies for healing threat down were removed from our legendaries also. At the moment there's no real content at 95 to heal unless you're running older scaled instances. If you're not yet 95 and running groups where you heal, they have changed the mechanics of threat for tanks and other classes but I'm not sure how it affects the healing minstrel at lower levels.

Wish I could be more help.

[Banionn]

I have been running BG and OD on 95 for a while now to get seals, and the way threat works these days is very frustrating. I keep getting healing agro from critheals, and with every threat reduction option for minstrels removed, the options are limited to just selfheal or use Still as Death, none of these options doing anything to counter the threatissue in itself.

I would very much like to see at least Song of Soothing back with a short induction time. It would reduce the feeling of being dumbed down to a healbot with no influence on threat. I cannot see the reason for simplifying the game to the extent where threat is only a tank issue- it should still be something all classes should be able to deal with using adequate skills.

[Gillmour]

I have been running BG and OD on 95 for a while now to get seals, and the way threat works these days is very frustrating. I keep getting healing agro from critheals, and with every threat reduction option for minstrels removed, the options are limited to just selfheal or use Still as Death, none of these options doing anything to counter the threatissue in itself.

I would very much like to see at least Song of Soothing back with a short induction time. It would reduce the feeling of being dumbed down to a healbot with no influence on threat. I cannot see the reason for simplifying the game to the extent where threat is only a tank issue- it should still be something all classes should be able to deal with using adequate skills.

Cooks can make lute strings that reduce healing threat by 10 or 12%. Not sure if they will be effective with the way threat currently works but may be worth a shot.

[Calta]

Cooks can make lute strings that reduce healing threat by 10 or 12%. Not sure if they will be effective with the way threat currently works but may be worth a shot.

There's a discussion about this here https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...17#post7036017

Lute strings don't seem to be very effective.

Wardens and champions have fewer catch up or threat gen skills so seem to be having more difficulty. Guardians and captains who are familiar woth threat changes report few problems.

I'm also going to quote Bobasham's post (I don't agree with him that healing threat isn't going to be a problem-but YMMV). It's from the bullroarer 'threat in 12.1' thread, in response to my specific questions about how healing threat works and which classes have issues.

healing aggro isn't so clear cut, it's also not been figured out completely.

one fact we do know is that you only get aggro from actual heals, not over heals. with the amount of damage enemies doing it caps the amount of aggro healers can actually generate quite a lot. and that damage will be split between other people too, for example a captain will heal off actual numbers a lot with smaller ticks while your minstrel's bigger heals might have large percentages of the heals over-healing and not turning into additional aggro.

in-combat moral regain makes it really hard to figure out what is actually healed and what is over-healed too

the healing threat multipler is only in effect (the new one of 12.1) is on tanks in there tank specs too so old formulars still apply iinc so you should be generate a lot less aggro is perportion to tanks.

I think the days of healers actually worring about aggro is kinda out the door now with how much damage players are doing compared to the little amount we're getting hit. with this huge buff to tanks aggro in 12.1 tanking (the aggro side) should be much, much easier.

<EDIT: In response to my comment (paraphrased) that threat in BBs being less of an issue to me in smaller groups and 6 mans-largely because i don't trait heals- but that raid BBs may be different....>

you'll be surprised :P

aggro in BB's seems to be set patterns with enemies going for set allies. but if that ally soldier is dead they pick a player at the highest aggro, thats normally the minstrel proccing a heal to something. so while the enemie is just spawning the healers get targetted and focused A LOT! enemies arn't as easy to pull off too because of the weird aggro system in there so tanks NEED to force taunt or dps need to keep an eye on there healers to kill mobs on them.

BB's can snowball into fail because of this pretty quickly. in beta many times if the group got a little behind and let just a few allies die, the healers ended up pullings 10's and progressively more every pull, after a while and started camping players at spawn point.

although I've not checked raid BB's on live or 12.1 :P

The healing threat mechanic is problematic to work out....